Justin Trudeau – The Great Divider

The Trudeau Government sure has stepped into it this time concerning the application requirements for youth summer-job funding. Voices right across a broad political spectrum are critical of how this is being rolled out.

The Toronto Star editorial board (of all sources) has honed in on the particular flaw in the process:

…It needs to return the debate to one about actions, not beliefs. Government doesn’t have to fund actions that violate rights, but it shouldn’t try to police what people believe.

Of course we could have a whole other debate on whether or not abortion is an actual “right” in this country, and included in the Charter. Some say no.

But first of all the Trudeau Liberals need to stop trying to punish people with viewpoints that differ from their own.

Like it or not, Justin Trudeau is Prime Minister of all Canadians – not just of the left. He should start acting that way.

 

Update: Canada Summer Jobs attestation specifically targets activities, not beliefs: Hajdu – Global News.

Well, a lot of people still seem to have trouble believing that.

And then there’s this: Archbishop to Trudeau: You’re ‘confused’ if you think you can be pro-abortion and Catholic. I doubt that Trudeau actually sees himself as Catholic. Probably more of a post-modernist Global Gaia Worshipper.

Advertisements
This entry was posted in Big Government, Canadian Charter, Canadian Government, Canadian Politics, Democracy, Identity Politics. Bookmark the permalink.

213 Responses to Justin Trudeau – The Great Divider

  1. Miles Lunn says:

    I think he has probably figured winning big is out of the question so he is trying to drive a wedge between generations. I’ve found millennials who are the largest cohort tend to be much less tolerant of different viewpoints. Older generations remember World War II being a recent memory and the Cold War so they understand how vital diversity of viewpoints are to a healthy democracy whereas many millennials grew up in the SJW era where much of the education system teaches them there is a correct and incorrect opinion and where just in lifestyle and tastes, everybody wants to follow the trends and being different is frowned upon rather than embraced. Only if you are different in being part of an identifiable group is it embraced, not in opinion.

    Interesting Mainstreet Research has had five provincial polls out so far and federal and it seems all of them show a strong generational gap with millennials in each case tilting heavily towards the left but older voters to the right. Amongst millennials, Trudeau has nearly a 20 point lead but amongst seniors he is tied with the Tories and both are over 40%. See the same provincially as in BC, the BC Liberals are in third behind the Greens amongst millennials but still about 8 points in the lead amongst seniors and ahead amongst those over 50. Only in Saskatchewan so far is there less of a generational divide as the Saskatchewan Party leads amongst all age groups but only a plurality amongst millennials whereas close to 60% amongst boomers. In Ontario Wynne still leads amongst them whereas amongst Gen X, Boomers, and Silent generation she is trailing by over 20 points and PCs in the 45-50% amongst those groups. Same in Quebec where Quebec Solidaire is in first amongst millennials, but amongst older voters it is a battle between the CAQ and Quebec Liberals (who unlike the federal, are centre-right in orientation), while in New Brunswick same divide, NB Liberals 20 points ahead amongst millennials, PCs lead by 5-10 points amongst those over 50.

    Which brings me to another point if mainstreet polls are right, could 2018 be the year centre-right parties make a comeback. PCs 12 points ahead in Ontario, CAQ and Liberals (who are both centre-right) in a dog fight for first in Quebec, while in New Brunswick PCs and Liberals almost tied with only a small 2 point lead for the Liberals (and note past polls have given much larger leads for them as well as PC vote is more efficient since they tend to have narrow wins in the Anglophone parts while Liberals run up margins in the Francophone parts).

    It seems Trudeau’s left wing stance is pushing away some older Liberals as a lot of them joined the party when it was more centrist and more open to a variety of viewpoints than it is now. Otherwise it was in the past closer philosophically to the PCs (who were more centrist than too) as opposed to being NDP lite.

    Like

  2. Miles Lunn says:

    Apparently Working Families coalition is taking the government to court to strike down the third party advertising limits so they can spend millions to run ads against the Tories like they did in the past. I hope this fails in the court, but think it likely will as the Ontario law is less strict than the federal one which in the Harper vs. Canada case was upheld (note yes this is Stephen Harper back when he was president of the National Citizens’ Coalition, although he never got rid of the law as back then this was before unions spent millions on anti-Conservative ads so probably realized it was better to keep than get rid of).

    Like

  3. Miles Lunn says:

    Chantal Hebert has a column on the troubles for the Tories. While I normally find her less biased than the others I think there are problems with this one. Nanos, which is the most accurate pollster only shows the Liberals 3-4 points ahead and Mainstreet 6 points which is hardly an insurmountable lead. Yes the Tories are doing poorly amongst women, but one could say the Liberals are struggling amongst men so its which side can win the biggest on one side and minimize losses on the other. The Tories are also doing poorly amongst millennials, but the media keeps playing up the idea millennials will determine the outcome. They may be the largest single cohort but are far from a majority. Silent Generation (1928-1945) still exist, Boomers (1946-1964) may not be growing but their not shrinking and will be around for many years and never mind there is Generation X (1965-1979), so millennials which is those born after 1980 maybe the single largest cohort but there are still more voters born before 1980 than after. Likewise throughout the English speaking world, millennials vote heavily for progressive parties but that hasn’t stopped Conservative ones from winning.

    Hillary Clinton won millennials by 20 points but still lost, Jeremy Corbyn in Britain won them by a whopping 40 points (No poll has shown Trudeau with this kind of lead amongst millennials or anywhere close) and in provincial politics, Christy Clark lost millennials by almost 20 points yet came one seat shy of a majority while in Alberta, Millennials voted 53% for the NDP vs. 32% for PCs + WR whereas the provincewide totals were 52% PCs + WR and 41% NDP so the Tory deficit amongst millennials makes it tougher to win, but not impossible. After all if only they mattered, Hillary Clinton would have won a 400 electoral vote + landslide and Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour party would have won over 500 seats and the biggest landslide in UK history. But off course neither won at all. So yes the Tories should try to do better amongst millennials, but what we need to do is do what the PCs in Ontario according to the polls are doing. PCs in Ontario are about 10 points behind amongst millennials, but have a 20 point lead amongst every other group thus why they are on track for a majority. Young people are always more left wing but become more conservative once they buy a home, get married, have children, start their own business and thus realize money doesn’t grow on trees so this is nothing new, its always been this way.

    As for regional breakdowns, Chantal Hebert is right the numbers in Quebec are worrisome. The Tories are about where they were through most of the Harper era and in fact asides from Mulroney both times and Diefenbaker in 1958, they’ve tended to do poorly in Quebec. Our big challenge is under Harper, Quebec either went BQ or NDP, both parties that couldn’t win nationally. Now its swung Liberal. In Atlantic Canada, we lost by 40 points, now trailing by 15-20 points so it will take time to close the gap but at least heading in the right direction. In Ontario, multiple polls put us over 40% which is hardly something to be upset about although no guarantee we would get that but at least we have the potential. BC and Quebec are really the only two provinces where we are underperforming. In the case of BC, I think once the NDP-Greens have had some time to do some damage, we have the potential to recover there. Quebec will always be a challenge, but with the CAQ tied or slightly ahead provincially I don’t think conservatism is dead in Quebec. Its just the style that sells there is quite distinct from the rest of Canada creating a challenge, but Diefenbaker in 1958 and Mulroney both times overcame this so its doable even if difficult.

    So in sum the Tories may not be the favourites to win the next election, but I would hardly say we are in a horrible position. Certainly when compared to 14 months ago when the Liberals had a 20+ point lead and Trudeau had an over 60% approval rating, things look a lot better now whereas then they looked pretty grim so give it time. Governments take time to defeat themselves, but Trudeau seems to be doing it much faster than Harper or Chretien did. He is showing the type of arrogance you only saw in Harper after 7 years in power as opposed to only 2 years in.

    Like

    • joannebly says:

      I agree that Trudeau is showing that entitlement-type arrogance at a shockingly earlier stage. Even the media pundits are murmuring about it and also people like Craig Oliver who originally seemed to think Trudeau could do no wrong, are critical about his lack of presence in the House of Commons and answering reporters’ questions with more than a bland word salad.

      Like

      • Liz J says:

        Trudeau is relishing his celebrity as evidenced in his swagger as he is seen with other leaders from around the globe.
        In one clip he sat down and crossed his legs showing some interesting socks…the others were traditional black! He’s definitely playing it to the max!

        Listening to him giving prepared speeches/lectures It’s hard to believe he is the architect of any of it but rather coming from his top dog managers behind the scenes. It’s hard to take his breathless nasal emoting, something right out of drama class.

        Like

  4. Miles Lunn says:

    More poll numbers out from Mainstreet. Thankfully the most explosive one is for the smallest province. UCP has a massive lead in Alberta and is even ahead by six points in Edmonton (if the NDP cannot win there, they are in big trouble) although with still 16 months left, I suspect the NDP will include lots of goodies in their next two budgets so things should tighten a bit, but Kenney has a 29 point cushion, nearly 30 point lead in Calgary, and 50 point lead in Rural Alberta so as long as he doesn’t shoot himself in the foot and do something really stupid he should win next year.

    The explosive one is PEI where the Greens are in the lead at 36%, PCs in second at 30%, and Liberals third at 28%. They had a referendum on PR which passed, but the government ignored the results due to low turnout so I hope this is not a beginning of a PR wave. Certainly with how poorly its worked in Europe is good reason not to go there. Germany had an election on September 24th and still doesn’t have a government in place while Netherlands had one on March 15th and didn’t have a government in place until October 2017. As an investor I can tell you political instability makes a place less attractive to invest.

    In Newfoundland, Liberals 2 points ahead of PCs so nothing much to write about. Manitoba and Nova Scotia out tomorrow. Anyways if the polls are right perhaps maybe are we going to see the provinces swing rightward to balance out the feds? I sure hope so. Parties on the right are leading by double digits in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Ontario (and maybe Manitoba will find out tomorrow), while tied in Quebec (actually tied between two centre-right parties), New Brunswick, and Newfoundland & Labrador. Only PEI and BC (and perhaps Nova Scotia) due centre-left parties have a lead outside the margin of error.

    Like

  5. Miles Lunn says:

    On the issue of whether abortion is a Charter right that is a gray area. A blanket ban or one that too heavily restricts it would violate the Charter as per the Morgentaler decision however the Charter does not preclude having some restrictions on it. Off course courts change so its quite possible today any restriction would not survive a charter challenge, but certainly in 1989 a revised abortion law could have, but since no one is proposing any abortion law it is sort of a mute point whether it would or wouldn’t survive a charter challenge. Certainly banning abortion in the event of a woman’s life being in danger would violate section 7 on the right to life, liberty, and security of person, but a ban on late term abortions making an exception when a woman’s life is threatened probably would survive.

    The history on abortion legislation is parliament actually did pass a new law in 1989, but there was a tie vote in the senate. The speaker then voted to defeat it following Denison’s Rules (note speaker is not supposed to vote on personal opinion, rather vote whichever way will allow continuation of debate so that means affirmative if a confidence bill but negative if not a confidence one). After this, due to the divisiveness on abortion no leader has touched it with a ten foot pole. While it’s true we are the only developed country with no abortion law, late term abortions on demand are de facto banned as one can not practice medicine without being a member of the medical association and their self governing rules ban late term abortions except when a mother’s life is at risk. So may not being banned legally, but there is no place in Canada that will perform a late term abortion unless a mother’s life is at risk.

    Like

  6. Liz J says:

    Late term abortion is akin to murder. I do not believe in abortion. I cannot speak for the conscience of anyone else belonging to the human race be they be medical doctors or women who have them for any reason.
    Neither do have I any respect for politicians who play that card to use it for votes. These would be the so-called feminist votes I assume, remember our PM has said he is a feminist!
    I have no stats on how many abortions are performed in this country per year.

    Looking back in history at political leaders in this country, allowing life is more complicated now, not sure it’s fair to say we have a reason to be concerned for the character, the motives of those who seek Office. I do think the game is much “dirtier” for wont of a better word. If it’s all about power as opposed to the common good we all lose.

    Like

    • Anne in swON says:

      What is confounding for me is the number of women who are pro-abortion. Once you have felt the slightest movement of an unborn child inside you how heartless one must be to inflict such pain end that life.

      Like

      • Anne in swON says:

        *and end that life

        Like

        • Liz J says:

          For sure, I agree. I cannot believe they would never have it come back to haunt them.
          If that’s a tenet of feminism lumped in with other issues it’s hard to accept the whole feminist thing as well.

          All this “Me too” stuff is troubling too, are they feminists I digress, that’s a whole other issue. I think of our fathers brothers, grandfathers, uncles and sons and find it hard to believe so much “sexual assaults” and what constitutes it.

          Like

  7. Anne in swON says:

    There goes another one – “Campbell shutting down Toronto soup plant, cutting 380 manufacturing jobs”.

    “Soup and stocks produced by the Toronto facility, which first opened in 1931, will be made at three locations in the U.S. after the closure.” Only 220 jobs will be retained after the company moves its headquarters to a new Toronto location. What, no tweets from Wynne?

    Like

  8. Miles Lunn says:

    Even Jagmeet Singh has gone after the Liberals on their summer jobs policy so its not just the Tories attacking them which I think is what they hoped for and wanted to use this as a wedge issue as generally speaking when wedge issues on social ones are used, usually the socially liberal side comes out on top. But this much like the small business tax changes seems to be a case of them overplaying their hand. Taxing the rich more despite being economically a bad idea is quite popular, but with the small business tax changes this was a case of where they went too far. That seems to be a problem with the Trudeau government. Harper was often accused of being too right wing and no doubt he definitely took conservative positions on a lot of issues, but he generally seemed to know where the fine line was and was careful not to cross it whereas Trudeau seems to not know where the fine line is on the progressive side and is too willing to cross it.

    Like

  9. Greg says:

    It just seems vindictive and punitive to me. He sees pro life people as the enemy so he feels the need to publicly punish them to please his base.

    Like

    • Miles Lunn says:

      He is trying to use it as a wedge issue knowing there is a sizeable portion who do genuinely hate pro-lifers. But its a dangerous one. I think his goal was to trip up the Tories so he could run fearmongering ads claiming Scheer is going to recriminalize abortion, but this looks like a case where he overplayed his hand and rather than hurting Scheer as he hoped, it hurt him more.

      Like

      • Anne in swON says:

        This is the same tactic the LPC used on PM Harper. It didn’t work then and it won’t work now. You’re right when you say, “…this looks like a case where he overplayed his hand and rather than hurting Scheer as he hoped, it hurt him more.” When you have “a multi-faith panel” convening in Toronto “to call on the government to revise the Canada Summer Jobs criteria” you’d think that might be a strong hint to Trudeau that he got it wrong.

        Like

  10. Anne in swON says:

    “Islamophobia won’t be the central focus of parliamentary committee’s M-103 report,” reports the National Post. I wonder how much the blowback by Canadians of all political stripes following the hijab scissor attack hoax might have to do with it should that be the case. We don’t have too much longer wait to see whether such a claim holds true.

    Like

  11. Anne in swON says:

    Tweeted by Dean @bcbluecon – “EXCLUSIVE: Two women come forward with graphic sexual misconduct allegations against Ontario Progressive Conservative Leader Patrick Brown. Allegations, which Brown denies, date back to when he was a federal MP. Watch @glen_mcgregor’s report tonight.”

    Like

    • Miles Lunn says:

      Worst time to come out. If they are serious enough Brown should step aside and let someone else lead the party. Yes I Know its unfair if false, but its not worth letting Wynne get back in. If false he will be vindicated in a court of law. While not enough time for a leadership race, if there is only one candidate there is no race, so best for caucus to choose the replacement. Yes its short notice, but I’ve seen even shorter notices in other countries for change in leaders so it can be done. Off course lets hear the details before rushing to judgement. I am not calling for Brown to step down, just saying if it will sink our chances he should so lets see what the results are.

      Like

  12. Miles Lunn says:

    Four top campaign people asked him to resign and he refused. We cannot let this go on. I understand Brown might need a few days to think about it, but he should really consider the province first not himself. We absolutely cannot hand this election to the Liberals which I fear this might just do.

    Like

  13. Miles Lunn says:

    I’ve read the allegations and whether true or not, the damage is done and there is not enough time to recover so I think Patrick Brown for the good of the party and the province needs to resign as leader. To avoid a divisive leadership race, caucus should unanimously choose someone, I would recommend Lisa McLeod or Vic Fidelli. Maybe Lisa McLeod as with a woman leader we won’t have to worry about this. I realize it is a shock to him so I don’t think he has to resign tonight, but I give him two weeks. Spend some time with family and friends to discuss this and realize while it will be a big personal blow to him especially if these are false, allowing Wynne or Howarth to win in June is something we cannot have. If false he will have other chances as he is young enough that he still has a future in politics.

    Like

    • Anne in swON says:

      I think he needs to step aside a.s.a.p. Five top campaign officials have resigned over this. The party is in shambles and now it’s a matter of trying to save the furniture.

      Like

      • Miles Lunn says:

        The election isn’t over, but agree if Brown stays on we are probably toast. We still have lots of funds and a large membership and I suspect the top campaign officials would return with a new leader. My choices in order are Lisa McLeod followed by Vic Fidelli. We should have chosen Christine Elliott, but since she is not in caucus probably not realistic to have her as leader.

        Like

  14. Fresh Start says:

    Long time lurker here but I feel compelled to post in frustration. I feel like I’m having a heart attack. Patrick Brown’s electoral chances seemingly have just been torpedoed with these new sexual misconduct allegations.

    Will Ontario ever be rid of the Liberals? F#@k!!

    Like

  15. Miles Lunn says:

    I am hearing reports Brown is planning to resign as leader, but will get a confirmation tomorrow. I heard he had a late night caucus call and caucus was not supportive of him staying on. This will be bad news in the short term, but if the right leader replaces him could be good news as this will through the Liberals and NDP off their game since they will have to start from scratch digging up as much dirt as possible. So yes I am disappointed and worried, but lets remember Wynne is still staying on and is not well liked so its not over yet. We can still win this in Ontario with a new leader.

    Like

  16. Miles Lunn says:

    UPDATE: Patrick Brown has resigned as PC leader. The caucus will tomorrow decide on what path forward to choose the next leader. He will remain MPP, but no longer leader. I am quite happy the party dealt with this quickly. This is the type of story we need to get off the front pages ASAP so we can focus on the troubles with the Wynne government. I off course try not to pass any judgement. If what happened is true, I applaud the women for coming forward as any type of sexual abuse is unacceptable under any circumstances. Likewise, if Patrick Brown is innocent I hope he is able to clear his name and go on to have a rewarding career even if he never becomes premier.

    Like

  17. Liz J says:

    We are doomed. This coming out at this time is highly suspect, the mere hint of sexual misconduct is all it takes to take a person down. Very sad.

    Like

  18. Liz J says:

    Lisa would be great, they’ll need to appoint an interim leader ASAP.

    Like

  19. gabbyinqc says:

    Sad to see another man taken down by anonymous accusers. I tremble at the thought the men in my life might one day be faced with similar unprovable career-destroying allegations.
    Having said that, what the CBC’s Robyn Urback has written about Brown vs Wynne is food for thought:
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/patrick-brown-resignation-1.4503051
    “… he’s never really given the impression that he will govern by conviction, instead of convenience. Say what you will about Wynne, she appears to genuinely believe in the things she’s doing. Brown rarely gave off the same impression.”

    Political calculations rather than policies based on principles, not my idea of politics.

    Like

  20. Liz J says:

    I’ve been wondering if there has been a lot of warring factions within the party . Hopefully this is not part of that, timing is key in politics.

    Conservatives have been known to defeat themselves.

    I too worry about this onslaught of accusations against men, in fact I’m fed up with it. It means guilty until proven innocent and then there is always that doubt.

    Like

    • gabbyinqc says:

      “I’ve been wondering if there has been a lot of warring factions within the party .”
      I don’t know about the Ontario Conservative Party … but given some of the comments at another conservative blog about Patrick Brown not being conservative enough because he supposedly espoused some liberal and/or “progressive” ideas, well, it seems that you’re right in saying “Conservatives have been known to defeat themselves.”

      That’s not to contradict what I stated earlier, about my favouring principles-based politics. I think I’m a realist. However, the gate has been opened wide on various issues; realistically, there’s no turning back.

      Like

      • Anne in swON says:

        We’ve seen too much of this “backtracking” type of politics where candidates say one thing to get elected and immediately do an about-face once in office. Patrick Brown is just the latest culprit. I like Lisa McLeod and Vic Fedelli but if I had my druthers I’d go with Monte McNaughton.

        Like

        • Miles Lunn says:

          Considering how awful Wynne is, I would stick with someone safe. Fidelli was a successful and popular mayor of North Bay while Lisa MacLeod is a very strong debater and I think having three women running would be a welcome change. As for the allegations, it doesn’t look like he broke the law, but what he did if true (and I personally believe the women) is definitely inappropriate and wrong. For too long many men have engaged in sexually inappropriate conduct with other women so I am glad this is coming out and hopefully in the long run we will see less of this happening and also women who have been abused will be more careful coming out. Considering the pain that comes from coming out, most of the time they are true, not malicious although that is why we have courts.

          As a side note I have been hearing rumours with very vague details that something like this might come. While not fair, as a single male in his late 30s there is always the suspicion if still unmarried at that age one has a seedy lifestyle. 20 years ago, a single male at his age would be assumed to be a closet gay, but since nowadays most aren’t afraid to come out that is no longer applied. Apparently there were rumours in the beltway on this for a while and not just with him but many more MPs too. As mentioned Kent Hehr is in trouble so I think we are going to see more fall on allegations like these. I would not be surprised if multiple MPs are forced from their caucus federally from all parties over things like this. In Britain it could actually topple the government as so far a number of Conservative and Labour MPs have had allegations of sexual misconduct surface thus May could lose her working majority with the DUP.

          Like

  21. Miles Lunn says:

    Not just affecting Ontario politics, but federal as accusations of sexual misconduct against federal cabinet minister Kent Hehr have come out. I think with the Harvey Weinstein allegations, this has emboldened more women to come out so you are going to see many more politicians having their careers destroyed over allegations so Brown will not by the last by any means. And it will impact all parties not one.

    As for what this means for the Ontario PCs, no doubt bad news in the short term, but Brown was a good organizer, seemed to have a reasonable good read on the public mood, but on a personal level didn’t really connect that well with people and came across as a phony to some. Not only that he has a speech problem (which there is nothing wrong), but I worried he would perform poorly in the debates. So yes this may sink us, but this also might be a blessing in disguise where happening now instead of during the campaign or not happening at all, we get an even stronger leader who helps us even more.

    Like

    • Anne in swON says:

      Unfortunately for Brown there were far more negatives than positives even before this latest brouhaha. Winning the leadership by deception doesn’t give you the moral high ground.

      Like

  22. gabbyinqc says:

    As if more proof were needed that there’s usually a double standard when it comes to conservatives’ vs “progressives’” behaviour:
    http://torontosun.com/2016/05/03/wynne-dealt-with-sexual-harassment-allegations-against-liberal-mpps/wcm/eab00b64-4dab-4dcd-b457-71aef1df59ed
    “Premier Kathleen Wynne said Tuesday that she’s had to deal with allegations of sexual harassment against at least two Liberal members of the Ontario legislature since she became party leader in 2013.
    However, Wynne wouldn’t say who they were, where the allegations came from, or if she asked the accused offenders to leave the Liberal caucus.
    “I dealt with them in various ways,” she said. “There have been a couple of instances. The situations were confidential, so I’m not going to go into details.”

    Like

  23. Liz J says:

    We must choose a woman, there’s no option given the way so many women are popping up to accuse men of sexually “assaulting” them. If they go back to teenage years we may never find a man pure enough to run for Office.

    Someone mentioned Carolyn Mulroney and I agree she would be exactly the person for the job. She is the complete package for today’s politics. She has name recognition as well .
    However, I have no faith the PC’s will make the best choice.

    Like

  24. Anne in swON says:

    I would hope that whoever is selected to replace Brown will keep a close eye on all of those obvious small-l liberals who became candidates in very underhanded ways. There are a number of them. Maybe now we can have a chance at having a conservative party instead of a liberal-leaning one. There are many of us who didn’t like what the party was becoming under Brown.

    Like

    • Liz J says:

      I have been wondering for a while now if we have been infiltrated, we need to be smarter when vetting candidates.
      We all know Liberals will do anything for power,they think it is their God given right and the work to that end, no holds barred.

      Like

      • Anne in swON says:

        I believe the party has been infiltrated. Look no further than the disputes over what has been referred to as the ‘appointing’ of candidates in certain ridings and the refusal to let other more qualified individuals run. The source of the stench is only now being uncovered.

        Like

    • Anne in swON says:

      It turns out that Brown’s exploits were an “open secret”. If so, then that old adage, “You reap what you sow”, seems appropriate.

      Like

      • Miles Lunn says:

        There were largely rumours but no hard evidence so not sure what could have been done by the party. I guess members when voting for the new leader could have played it safe and chosen Christine Elliott (who was my preferred choice). It’s hard to say if rumours were based on him actually doing this or if it was more he was a life long bachelor as usually unfortunately when someone is over 30 and has never been married and never had girlfriend or boyfriend (if gay) people start to get suspicious. Not fair, but that is what happens. Anyways hopefully the party can get it together is time is ticking. I am less worried about Wynne getting back in as her popularity is pretty bad, I am more worried this might open the door for a Howarth win which was closed until this.

        Like

  25. Miles Lunn says:

    Here is the Toronto Star prospective https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2018/01/25/ontario-pcs-can-move-forward-if-they-learn-lessons-of-metoo.html whom I rarely agree with, but do this time. As for it being an open secret about Brown, there is a lot of political gossip in Ottawa and it was at best a rumour still the party probably should have looked into deeper when he was first chosen, but a lesson learned. I think much of the suspicion came down to the fact he is a 39 year old life long bachelor so if he is not gay and doesn’t even have a girl friend, the assumption becomes he probably does a lot one night stands.

    This is a huge blow, but if we stay focused we can overcome this and still win. But this means one making sure that if anyone else in the party knew about this, they are shown the door. It means asking him to quit caucus and sit as an independent or preferably resign outright as MPP and not run as a PC candidate in the coming election. Also it means choosing someone both who is moderate and can unite the party. We choose someone too right wing or someone who is divisive amongst the grassroots, I believe we could have trouble. That is why I believe Lisa Macleod followed by Vic Fideli are the best choices. Both are non-controversial safe choices who people should be able to feel comfortable voting for.

    Like

    • Anne in swON says:

      Look at the number of members he signed up. He proved he could play identity politics with the best of them. Good riddance! Vic Fedelli has indicated he’s ready to assume the party leadership into and beyond the election if asked.

      Like

  26. gabbyinqc says:

    Please forgive a non-Ontarian’s perspective …
    First: IMO, the primary issue here is the fairness (or lack thereof) of dismissal from one’s job & destruction of one’s reputation based on allegations & rumours rather than on hard evidence and due process. The issue of Patrick Brown’s movement to a more centrist conservative position is secondary. However, remember he was legitimately chosen as PC leader by a majority of party members and those same party members subsequently had a voice in drawing up the party platform.

    Second: The court of public opinion has conflated flirting, sexual harassment, sexual abuse, and even rape as practically one and the same. Sorry, but just because some women have now decided to air years’ old grievances does not necessarily make their allegations credible beyond question. I reject the notion that every woman making an accusation must be believed, especially those who make their accusations behind the shield of anonymity.

    Also remember that the federal opposition parties opposed the Harper government’s legislation which changed the age of consent from 14 to 16, so the current hue & cry & dismay over a 17-yr-old’s (?) purported experiences with a man in his 30s all sound rather hollow. As pointed out by some commenters elsewhere, didn’t Trudeau Sr. himself marry a young Margaret? He was 30 years older than she was when they met, she being 18 at the time.

    Like

    • Miles Lunn says:

      I think the reason they throw him under the bus is quite simple; getting rid of Wynne and making sure Howarth doesn’t win is the number on priority and with how close the election is they don’t have the luxury of time to see how this plays out. In time we will find out whom is correct I am sure (I tend to believe the women myself, but he deserves a fair trial and actually think since he stopped when she said no, it was more inappropriate than illegal what he did), but the interest of the province needs to come first and having him stay in was neither in the interest of the party or the province so it was the right decision. I called for him to resign on my blog last night before he did, so I am glad he made the righ decision.

      Like

    • joannebly says:

      “Please forgive a non-Ontarian’s perspective …”

      You are more than welcome to weigh in here on Ontario matters, Gabby! I always appreciate your perspective. And of course this whole #Metoo movement we’re seeing is much bigger than just Patrick Brown. I too worry about how careers are destroyed before due process has had a chance to occur, but I suppose in this case it was a political decision to turf Patrick Brown while he gets things sorted out.

      Like

    • Liz J says:

      Well said Gabby, I am in total agreement with your take on this matter.

      Like

  27. gabbyinqc says:

    Joanne & Miles Lunn, please understand I’m not arguing that Patrick Brown should necessarily have stayed in place as leader after the allegations came out. I realize it would have placed the PCs in an untenable position, with the media constantly asking the same question — “Are you calling those women liars?” — and never accepting whatever answer was provided. But as you said, Joanne, “this whole #Metoo movement we’re seeing is much bigger than just Patrick Brown”.

    Like

  28. Miles Lunn says:

    Do you think there should be a leadership convention or caucus decides. I am torn on this. We don’t have a lot of time, but perhaps if a leadership convention was scheduled six weeks from now that would be enough time to have in leader in place for the election, but definitely it would be cutting it close. There have however been leadership conventions as little as 100 days before an election (we are 132 days out) so it can be done, but time is of the essence. More importantly we need to keep the party united. If think if the party is united they have a good chance at winning, but if divided I am afraid we will lose, although I think the NDP rather than Liberals might benefit as Wynne’s approval ratings are so low not sure how much she can recover.

    Like

  29. Liz J says:

    Whatever we think of Brown this is not all about politics, it’s about ruining a man’s life over unproven allegations by two females in anonymity. Since we are dealing with politics, the dirtiest game in town, the timing is highly suspect. The allegations are weak IMO, however, it matters not, he is paying the price of a convicted man.

    Frankly I don’t care who they choose, the PC’s seem to have internal problems, they certainly don’t appear to be a cohesive group. If they are looking for a Dalai Lama or Mother Theresa good luck.

    Like

  30. Liz J says:

    Then we have Hehr, a man in a wheelchair, booted from Liberals for making some remarks that offended some woman’s delicate sensibilities. I would have given him a tongue lashing, taken care of it myself.

    Like

  31. gabbyinqc says:

    Christie Blatchford hits it out of the park with this one:
    http://nationalpost.com/opinion/christie-blatchford-what-happened-to-brown-is-fundamentally-wrong-every-man-in-the-world-is-now-vulnerable
    “For all the other moments #MeToo has wrought, the Patrick Brown story is seminal: A political leader is cut down like a sapling in the forest in a matter of hours, and none of his colleagues, in and outside of the Ontario Conservative party, and including the Ontario premier and the prime minister of Canada, have one word to say in the defence of fair play or the presumption of innocence.
    This — not the anonymous allegations of Brown’s accusers from the shadows — is what is shocking and disgraceful about this story. …”

    I was sorry to see conservative strategist Chad Rogers and MP Lisa Raitt on Power & Politics echoing the same lines about believing unproven & anonymous allegations.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/thenational/patrick-brown-kent-hehr-s-misconduct-cases-at-issue-1.4504842
    Surprising to hear Althia Raj’s compassion towards Patrick Brown’s performance at the press conference when Rosemary Barton said Brown did not “seem to understand the moment we are in …. the uprising of women” (5:50 mark). Also, Chantal Hebert’s final comment about anonymous accusations ending anybody’s career — “and that troubles me” — also food for thought.

    Like

  32. Liz J says:

    I was about to post Christie’s column too, made my day!

    Like

  33. Miles Lunn says:

    Forum FWIW has a poll out today showing PC numbers largely unchanged. 42% PC, 27% Liberal, and 23% NDP while 22% said Brown’s resignation makes them more likely to vote PC, 14% more likely to vote Liberal, 12% more likely to vote NDP, while 36% no impact on vote. So lets not panic, we can still win this if we choose right. Yes one should take this poll with a grain of salt, but lets not forget Wynne is deeply unpopular and that has not changed, so my hope is the PCs do this right so we can still get rid of Wynne. My thinking is the platform itself was reasonably good so a few tweaks but keep most of it and Brown does deserve credit for rebuilding the party in terms of membership and fundraising. But now someone should take it to the next step which is to form government. This may even be a blessing in disguise as Brown never really connected well with people on a personal level, so if we can get someone more likeable which I think Christine Elliott, Caroline Mulroney, Lisa Macleod, Vic Fideli, and Lisa Raitt all fit the bill, no reason we cannot see our numbers even improve.

    In terms of this destroying Patrick Brown’s career. It may have destroyed his political career, but if unfounded he can sue them, while if true I cannot say I feel the slightest bit sorry for him if it does destroy his career. If true, as these are only allegations, what he did was completely inappropriate and considering the number of men who have abused women I think it is time they start paying so we have less of this. I do agree though it is about balance, we need to on the one hand be sympathetic to women who come forward as we want to encourage those who have been sexually harassed or abused to come forward, but at the same time we also don’t want to create a case where people start using this as a way to destroy the careers of people they want to get back it. I am not sure what the solution is but something needs to be done for sure. That being said maybe we need to change it from yes to no, otherwise before you do any kind of sexual advances you ask first whereas now you can go ahead and as long as you stop when a woman says no (which Brown did from what I can tell) that is fine. Otherwise it seems he didn’t do anything illegal, rather just inappropriate. Although I still do find the idea of him hitting on teenage girls a bit creepy. If the women were closer to his age it would have less of a creep factor

    Like

  34. Liz J says:

    Heard mention of Rona Ambrose for leader, I say yes!!

    Like

  35. Miles Lunn says:

    I think this goes well beyond Brown, it seems sexual harassment and abuse is rather common amongst politicians globally. I’ve heard on Parliament Hill, Capitol Hill, and Westminster it is common amongst female staff to circulate which MPs/Congressman are creeps and whom to avoid so this is a dirty secret I think that is beginning to come to light. And it effects all parties, not just one. Lets remember four Liberal MPs so far have had to resign from their portfolios or caucus due to sexual misconduct allegations so its not the Tories, Liberals have their issues too.

    Like

  36. Miles Lunn says:

    Apparently Lisa Macleod just before Christmas had heard those rumours and asked the party to investigate, but they said they were unfounded. This doesn’t sound good, but if she is chosen as leader she can say she tried to take action on this. To be fair gossip about MPs affairs is quite common in the beltway and because it is so prevalent, unless there is an actual allegation, they tend to be dismissed. As a 39 year old bachelor with no girlfriend//boyfriend partner, there is going to be a lot of speculation unfortunately thus its hard to know if rumours have any truth or not, but when someone comes forward that can change.

    Like

    • Greg says:

      My memory is not what it used to be but I have vague recollections of reading someone saying he had a local reputation. Barrie isn’t small town like when I lived there, but it isn’t Toronto either. If he used to hang out at the favourite local spots, it was likely well known one way or another.

      Like

  37. gabbyinqc says:

    According to radio report in my area, new leader is Vic Fedelli (sp ?)

    Like

    • Miles Lunn says:

      He is the new interim leader, but still unsure if he will be the one to take us into the election or we have a leadership convention, the executive will decide that later today.

      Like

  38. Liz J says:

    Fedeli is the interim leader, I guess he’s the safe choice, he has been in politics at the Municipal level as well as mayor of North Bay .
    Lisa McLeod took herself off the table for me when she made comments on Brown going into the meeting, saying she wasn’t surprised at the charges, rumours had been going around and then wouldn’t elaborate.

    Like

  39. Liz J says:

    Hearing some of the opposition MP’s spewing their rhetoric, and it is rhetoric, about how it takes courage for these women to come forward. Their holier than thou smugness is puke inducing. The opposition leaders are playing it for all it’s worth as well.

    Like

  40. Greg says:

    Patiently waiting for the Torstar front page editorial demanding Wynne name which mpp’s were accused of harassment, the exact circumstances, and when they will be a) removed from caucus, and b) forbidden from running as liberals in the June electoin

    Like

    • Greg says:

      Sorry about clarity, there are 2 liberal mpps accused of sexual harassment and Wynne refuses to name names, refuses to divulge punishment. Given they are still sitting members, the punishment is less than my mom discovering my brother stole my haloween candy

      Like

    • Miles Lunn says:

      Agreed. She should suspend them from caucus until the investigation is complete and if not completed before the writ drops, refuse to sign their nomination papers. The PCs at least took strong action and didn’t equivocate on this.

      Like

  41. Anne in swON says:

    I am relieved that Brown is out as leader. He gained that position by appealing to social conservatives and then he stabbed them in the back by reversing his stance on several issues. The type of people he signed up through his membership drive raised many questions that were glossed over. However, to afford anonymity to two individuals who may yet affect the outcome of an election and thus the lives of the people of an entire province is reprehensible. This story should never have been printed unless the two accusers were willing to divulge their identities.

    Like

  42. Miles Lunn says:

    Leadership convention to be held before the end of March. Risky, but the right move I think. My biggest hope is we choose someone who is not too controversial and the party unites behind whomever we choose. Our number one goal needs to be replacing the Wynne government.

    Like

  43. Miles Lunn says:

    Interesting take from one Toronto Star writer on the double standard of innocent until proven guilty in court of law but guilty until proven innocent in the court of public opinon https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/01/26/why-does-a-patrick-brown-get-less-benefit-of-the-doubt.html . Politics is a blood sport and all too often people gain or lose votes based on perception not necessarily reality. The reality is the PCs want to form government and they saw the writing on the wall. Whether he did it or not, a court of law will determine, but was it really worth losing an election over I think is the question the party asked.

    Like

  44. joannebly says:

    Paul Bliss suspended now for allegations of sexual misconduct! What the heck is going on?

    Like

    • Liz J says:

      It’s the MeToo movement, it’s becoming a monster.
      The big problem with these accusations of sexual “misconduct”, we really don’t know just what that constitutes. They seem to have very delicate sensibilities, we better tell our boys to stay away from girls in high school,they may be taken down with accusations later in life if this keeps up.

      Like

      • Ruth says:

        exactly Liz….it will backfire on all these touchy women. Abuse should be reported but mere words are not harassment or misconduct and should not end careers. Hire guys for these jobs and let the women get left behind.

        Like

  45. Liz J says:

    There’s no time limit, the Bliss accuser combed her mind back 12 years to 2006. Was she suffering in silence until she found strength from the MeeToo’s? Did it impact her life as it will that of the accused?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Ruth says:

      if women don’t want careers working along side men, then maybe they were meant to stay in the kitchen. It works both ways……I’m sure these young girls are checking over all the males too.

      Like

  46. gabbyinqc says:

    Another great column by Rosie DiManno:
    https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/01/26/i-dont-care-if-patrick-brown-was-a-randy-womanizer.html
    “A teenage girl walks into a bar . . .
    An unwelcome pass from a much older man.
    “Get lost!”
    That’s how you do it, stranger-to-stranger.
    It isn’t rocket science.
    You don’t stagger drunk back to the guy’s house and then get all damsel-in-distress stressed over a crossed-wires sloppy seduction scene, as, way belatedly, both accusers of alleged sexual misconduct by Patrick Brown have now portrayed their encounters. …”

    Liked by 1 person

    • Liz J says:

      Love it. Thanks Gabby, I never read the TorStar, I may have to at least take a glance.

      It’s great DiManno and and Blatchford are standing up to this craziness.

      Like

      • gabbyinqc says:

        I should have specified that I got to DiManno’s column, as I do to many others, via the National Newswatch site https://www.nationalnewswatch.com

        There’s another interesting article at National Newswatch about Elisabeth May:
        “Three former Green Party staffers accuse Elizabeth May of workplace bullying”
        Jan 27 2018 — Alex Ballingall — Toronto Star

        So even the saintly May — who dismissed the allegations by saying “I studied for the priesthood. I’m really quite a committed Christian. I believe in treating people the way I’d like to be treated myself” — has been similarly accused in this current maelstrom, not of sexual harassment but of “workplace bullying”.

        Like

        • joannebly says:

          Interesting! I’ll have to check that out. Thanks Gabby.

          Like

          • gabbyinqc says:

            Okey-dokey!
            There’s another quite lengthy open letter (Jan 9, 2018) signed by 100 prominent French women, film actress Catherine Deneuve among them, denouncing the current mob mentality. Unfortunately it’s behind a paywall, but here’s part of it (revised Google translate version):
            ” … Accusations and indictments
            In fact, #metoo has led in the press and on social networks a campaign of public denunciations and charges against individuals who, without being given the opportunity to respond or defend themselves, were put exactly on the same level as sex offenders. This speedy justice already has its victims, men sanctioned in the exercise of their profession, forced to resign, etc., while their only wrong was to have touched one knee, tried to steal a kiss, talking about “intimate” things at a business dinner, or sending sexually explicit messages to a woman who did not reciprocate.
            This fever to send “pigs” to slaughter, far from helping women to empower themselves, actually serves the interests of the enemies of sexual freedom, of religious extremists, of the worst reactionaries …”

            Like

          • joannebly says:

            Very interesting indeed, Gabby. The more I think about this the more I feel this public shaming is very damaging. Take it up with the person directly, or their workplace, police, whatever. The #MeToo movement seems to be devolving into a very dangerous cult IMHO.

            Liked by 1 person

    • joannebly says:

      Yes I fear that many women are looking back right now and thinking who can I get back at? It actually minimizes those who are targets of real predictors.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Anne in swON says:

        Think back to the attack on James Bezan by a mind-boggingly sensitive Liberal MP. Surely we had to know they would be coming after any conservative they could. The msm and the Liberals are not such strange bedfellows.

        Like

        • joannebly says:

          Good point about the Bezan thing. Going to be very difficult for male & female colleagues going forward I would think. When your every word, facial expression, gesture can cause you to be a social media pariah in a nanosecond, I think we have a problem.

          Like

  47. Ruth says:

    Lisa Raitt
    It’s a privilege to serve as Deputy Leader of Canada’s Conservatives alongside our leader @AndrewScheer – Working together with the next Leader of the @OntarioPCParty we will deliver the change Ontario so desperately deserves.
    sounds like she isn’t running, thank goodness…..we need Lisa in Ottawa to help get rid of Trudeau in 2019.

    Like

  48. joannebly says:

    In case anyone missed Sandy’s article on the Patrick Brown story please check it out! WHAT PART DID ON LIBERALS HAVE IN PATRICK BROWN’S DOWNFALL?

    Like

    • Miles Lunn says:

      I actually heard Liberals had gotten inside word of this earlier and were planning to release it in May when it would be too late so we may have dodged a bullet here. Lets remember David Herle is running the Liberals’ election and he is known for digging up dirt and then releasing it when its too late to recover. Remember the 2004 federal election. He got hold of the Randy White tape a month before the election, but released it two days before since he knew if released when found White would have been dumped as candidate and they would have moved on. That being said I actually think if the Liberals did this, it might have not worked or maybe even led to an NDP government. Wynne’s approval ratings are so awful that it is possible the Liberals are finished as long as she is the leader. Anyways while Brown is a great organizer and fundraiser, on a personal level he doesn’t connect well with people and sadly in politics today personality matters a lot so getting someone who people like more might work in our favour.

      Lets remember that while it will be tight pressed, the Liberals also won’t have time to dig up nearly as much dirt on our candidate as they could before so that might be the one advantage.

      Like

  49. Liz J says:

    The Interim leader Fedeli called the accusations against Brown serious…I don’t know if I like the crew in the PC caucus…none have come out and said they believe in due process and let it go at that, they basically hung Brown out to dry
    I think this looks pretty bad, makes you wonder what actually went on that this was brought out at this time. Was there some kind of collusion?

    I am sure Fedeli wants the job, he was smiling like an old smoothie, he’s definitely an experienced politician.

    I can’t stand holier than thou attitudes, they all seem to have zero mercy on Brown. It appears he had no friends in that caucus, they treated him like a pariah.

    I just can’t get timing out of my head.

    Like

  50. Anne in swON says:

    Whoever becomes the new leader must bear in mind that there remain aspects of Brown’s platform which continue to alienate many supporters. Support for the carbon tax and the new sex ed. curriculum head the list.

    Like

    • Liz J says:

      Thanks Anne, well worth reading.

      Sex and politics goes back a long way.
      Anyone ever look up the Gerda Munsinger affair where it was revealed she was having a sexual affair with a cabinet minister ?

      Nothing shocks any more …sexual revolution, women’s lib, anything goes but it can also take someone down when it suits a cause and there’s no timeline.

      Like

  51. Liz J says:

    We have some serious work to do to get rid of the Wynne regime. Ontario has crept into a socialist state and becoming “progressively” more so every day. IMO that’s about as close as we can get to communism in a democracy.

    We need a true Conservative leader, we need to get rid of the term progressive, and stay true to our brand. That means we cannot try to be like the regime we are trying to oust , we have to take back what we have lost and are losing under this regressive regime. Our morals, our values, every facet of our lives is being interfered with through legislation. Our children are being raised by the state and the young parents of today who came up through the socialist creep don’t even realize it, Grandparents do.

    Time to wake up from the long sleep walk for Conservatives. As Conservatives right now we are between the proverbial rock and hard place but our first priority is to oust the Wynne government and it’s insidious policies. If we need any proof of the state taking over from cradle to grave better pay some attention to their incessant TV ads.

    Like

    • Miles Lunn says:

      I think since Wynne has moved so much to the left we can be fairly moderate, I don’t think going too far to the right is the right way as she will just get back in or heaven forbid the NDP will. Much like Brad Wall did in Saskatchewan start out moderate and by doing a good job you can slowly pull the public to the right. The problem is demographically Ontario does not fit the type of areas where right wing politics does well. Ontario is more urbanized than just about any country in Europe while in the US most of the states as heavily urbanized as Ontario are solid blue ones (Hawaii, California, Illinois, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Delaware). The only competitive or red ones that are more urbanized are Nevada and Arizona (In those two, rural areas are much more sparsely populated and I find in sparsely populated rural areas you can get over 80% to vote for conservative parties but in more dense rural areas (those over 50 people per square mile) generally 60% is your limit), Utah (has a large Mormon community so not applicable), Texas and Florida (both in the South where you have a stronger racial polarization). Also Ontario is very diverse and generally diverse areas tend to lean to the more progressive.

      So lets focus on winning, I think someone who is in the mold of Bill Davis is a heck of a lot better than Wynne and while maybe not perfect to those who want the party to move further right, it is a move in the right direction. Dropping the word progressive would just be attack fodder to Liberals. Most people associate the word progressive as forward looking which we are. Unfortunately the left has coopted the term to mean left wing when in fact there is really nothing progressive about left wing policies. Where I live in BC, the centre-right party is called the BC Liberals and despite the Liberal moniker, it hasn’t hurt them amongst conservative voters. People care more about platforms not names. After all the Liberals aren’t really liberal in the true sense as liberalism means at least in the classical sense smaller government which is definitely not what we see with Wynne. And there is nothing New about the NDP so I don’t think the average person cares much about the party label, they care more about what will happen if they win.

      Like

  52. Anne in swON says:

    At some point there needs to be a housecleaning in the party. There are indications that there are divisions within the PCPO that we are just now learning about. Remember, too, that Rick Dykstra the party president was himself accused of purchasing $170 bottles of liquor for underage females. The first article I read this morning was this one https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2018/01/28/fedeli-tackling-allegations-of-questionable-party-spending-in-brown-era.html (via National Newswatch).

    Like

    • Liz J says:

      It would be best if the PCPO does it’s own housecleaning before the media and others force them to do it. With the Brown “thing”…sorry, I don’t know what to call it, we may see some action from within.

      Like

      • Anne in swON says:

        We’ve already seen that the lack of ethics, morals and scruples doesn’t have to be illegal to harm a party. The provincial Liberals have skated on an issue involving a recent court decision but they’ve been found guilty in the court of public opinion. I guess it was too much to hope that the PC’s were above that sort of thing. We need a leader with ethics, morals and scruples. and Brown was not that person.

        Like

  53. Ruth says:

    All these latest cases have had the same theme. A girl going back to a guy’s apartment after a night in a bar. What did they expect was going to happen….sit and talk over a bowl of popcorn. The girls now days just can’t be that dumb!! That is not the abuse of rape and should not end a guy’s career. Sorry girls, you should have known what might happen.

    Like

    • Liz J says:

      We will never know the truth, the women have won. Forget due process of law, it never can work in situations where it’s one word against the other. Why they waited so long if it bothered them is the big question. Timing is everything here.

      Like

  54. Liz J says:

    It’s looking like there was a coup, they seemed so quick to force Brown out. I just wonder if there was some kind of deal or collusion . They still have time, sometimes shorter a time can work better.

    I still think Harper would have won the last election if the campaign had been shorter. They will have no time for anything but the important stuff, no cluttered messaging for people to sort out.

    Like

  55. joannebly says:

    Crazy stuff going on! Hard to keep up with it all. Sounds like Fedeli did some house-cleaning last night.

    Like

  56. Anne in swON says:

    I wonder about the extent of the distraction the Ontario PC scandal will cause when the House reconvenes today, especially given that both Brown and Dykstra were once MP’s. I’ll bet the Libs will take a run at using it.

    Like

    • Anne in swON says:

      Brian Lilley is on CFRA. This should be interesting. He has heard that the Toronto Star is sitting on a story involving a very senior Liberal.

      Like

  57. Liz J says:

    I don’t think we can be sure there have been or is the same stuff going on withing the Liberal party both federally and provincially.
    One thing I do know, the PC’s better choose a woman to lead in the present climate. They better not choose Doug Ford either, they would be inviting more drama.

    Whatever happened to strong women? Why could they not defend themselves in all situations?
    I would never allow a man to take advantage of me or make snide sexual oriented remarks…he’d get it back big time. Women working with men in government settings or anywhere else. They want it all and yet act like damsels in distress when it suits. This is not random attacks on the street, serious rapes, this is not looking good for women’s libbers who want to open their own doors!

    Like

    • Miles Lunn says:

      Doug Ford would be a disastrous choice, but not sure he will run although we will find out in about an hour. Most of the party brass sees him as toxic and wants nothing to do with him. Add to the fact he is on the record of supporting Trump which would be a gift for the Liberals to turn attention away from their sordid record to his personal views. In addition Etobicoke North where he lives is normally a very safe Liberal riding and while the popularity of the Ford Brothers might help him win the seat there is no guarantee as this is a seat we usually languish in the 20s and even during Harper’s big win in 2011, we only got 32% in that riding. I would rather he run municipally. That will ensure the left don’t put up a candidate and instead back John Tory thus keeping your left wing types out of the mayor’s chair. John Tory may be a Red Tory, but to win in Toronto that is probably the furthest right you can be and still be electable. Lets remember we don’t have to beat the Liberals in the 416, to win provincially, it is the 905 not 416 that will decide the election.

      Like

  58. Anne in swON says:

    The Patrick Brown ouster came about because one of the two women accusers is a close personal friend of CTV’s Rachel Aiello who got her co-worker, [Edited: Reporter Who Shall Not Be Named], involved. Neither the PCPO’s nor the Ontario Libs were involved in any way. The press was solely responsible for the dissemination of the story.

    Like

  59. Anne in swON says:

    Joanne, is there a problem with a comment I made at 10:39 a.m.? It’s still awaiting moderation. If there is a problem please let me know. Thanks.

    Like

  60. gabbyinqc says:

    This is the headline of a story re: allegations about another conservative politician (via National Newswatch):
    “Ontario PC Party president Rick Dykstra resigns after sexual assault accusation
    The Conservative Party was made aware of the allegation against the then federal MP, but it decided to let him run in the 2015 election …” (my added emphasis)

    Of course, the fact that both P Brown & R Dykstra are former CONSERVATIVE MPs who served under then-PM Harper has to be prominent in the article. Can a conservative like me help feeling anything other than suspicious about the motivation, especially when the two reporters involved in disclosing both allegations are the same tag team that wrote about the supposed 2011 robocall scandal?

    I recently came across this interesting article:
    http://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22/will-2018-year-right-takes-media-deficit-seriously/
    Will 2018 Be The Year The Right Takes Our Media Deficit Seriously?
    By Lee Habeeb
    “… Folks get their news and cultural cues from a media that leans left, with movies, sitcoms, talk show hosts, and sports entertainment all serving as an almost de facto extension of one ideological faction.
    It isn’t just the short-term political landscape affected by this well-documented bias. The long-term impact is only now beginning to be understood. A new poll by the American Culture and Faith Institute revealed a sharp rise in Americans who prefer socialism to capitalism: the number was 37 percent. …”
    Worth reading, even though it refers to American issues.

    In all this terrible controversy … needless to say, if the accusations about forcing anyone to engage in a sexual act are proven to be true, then that perpetrator deserves to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

    Like

    • Ruth says:

      the women went to the men’s bedrooms, what did they expect.

      Like

      • gabbyinqc says:

        I’m with you on that angle … if invited to a man’s bedroom and the woman agrees, she can expect something other than a profound discussion on the merits of the Lib/NDP/PC platforms. However, if there is also coercion involved, even if the woman has naively (or stupidly ?) agreed to go into the bedroom, in my eyes it’s still a crime.

        Like

    • joannebly says:

      “…especially when the two reporters involved in disclosing both allegations are the same tag team that wrote about the supposed 2011 robocall scandal?”

      Aha, Interesting point Gabby! Neither of those two reporters are my favs.

      Like

  61. Miles Lunn says:

    Doug Ford is now in the running. Good God, if we are stupid enough to choose him we will pay dearly. Someone should tell Doug to put his ego aside and put the party and province first and realize he will be a major liability for the party. Anyways hopefully we can get a good female candidate like Christine Elliott to throw her hat in.

    Like

    • gabbyinqc says:

      Because I’m not an Ontarian, my opinion on this really carries no weight, despite Joanne’s kind assurances … but I’ll venture an opinion anyway. I agree that Doug Ford would be a very bad choice. I also think Caroline Mulroney’s lack of actual political experience may be a drawback, although her father’s formidable record (2 majority wins) can be a definite asset but also possibly a liability (the Airbus / Karlheinz Schreiber affair).

      Christine Elliott (Jim Flaherty’s widow) sounds like the best candidate.

      Like

  62. Liz J says:

    It’s one hell of a convoluted mess across the board. I simply do not believe all these smug reporters and others across party lines are squeaky clean themselves.

    They better be careful, a can of worms has been opened, sex, politics, media hacks, I smell sleaze all around at this point. Women are not all innocent either, they have a lot of power to make a lot of trouble. Once a man is accused he is ruined, it’s almost impossible to clear his name and reputation.

    Like

  63. Liz J says:

    Doug Ford is in, the race has begun.

    Like

    • Miles Lunn says:

      Hopefully we can get someone else. I must say I am quite upset he is running. If he truly cared about the party and province he wouldn’t do this. Regardless of what one thinks about him, there is so much material for the Liberals to attack him so I feel he is hurting not helping the party. The party has had a bad week and no need to pour more gasoline on the fire, lets try and fix the problems and then come together. It’s quite frustrating seeing what should have been an easy win, possibly turn into loss (I hope I am wrong, but I am becoming more pessimistic about our chances by the hour).

      Like

  64. joannebly says:

    There is a comment in the filter. I have to make a minor edit and then will release it due to our new policy of not directly naming a particular reporter.

    Like

  65. Liz J says:

    Well if the same operatives are still around who were there when we lost the last three elections maybe we are in trouble no matter what or who runs. Those elections were winnable. There isn’t enough time to clear the deck of them all. There is a very small window to get it right and a lot of hurdles to clear.

    Like

  66. Miles Lunn says:

    I think this is just the beginning and you will see more men fall over sexual misconduct. On Warren Kinsella’s website, he said there is a really big name whose trail the media has been on for three years and there are three complaints and once they come forward it will be a shocker. He doesn’t name anyone so we can only guess and for legal purposes probably best not to make any speculations, but just a heads up that something big is likely to come in the not too distant future. No idea which party either.

    Like

  67. gabbyinqc says:

    Well, in this whole mess I must give a thumbs up to an NDP MP, Ellen Brosseau. Remember? She’s the one who was elbowed by Trudeau when he had a hissy-fit because MPs were not in their seats ready to vote.

    During today’s Power & Politics discussion of the bill the Liberals have introduced re: harassment in the workplace (Bill C-65 https://globalnews.ca/news/3992737/bill-c-65-what-does-it-do/) she said that MPs need to define what exactly constitutes harassment. As has been mentioned here in this thread, some of the accusers are claiming they’ve been harassed and/or abused and/or assaulted, but there’s no clear distinction on what those are.

    Like

  68. Liz J says:

    We could be in for a real political upheaval if the twitter buzz is any indicator.

    Like

  69. gabbyinqc says:

    I think Conservative politicians AND their supporters had better stay away from speculating on the identity of the mystery politician supposedly about to be outed. Granted, I’m no expert … but this looks like a baiting exercise to me.

    Like

    • joannebly says:

      Good point Gabby!! Let’s be careful.

      Like

      • gabbyinqc says:

        Something else on this for readers’ consideration: if we found it unfair that someone’s reputation can be ruined by unproven allegations, can we now turn around and gleefully look forward to someone else being the subject of such allegations, just because the person may be in another party, not our own?

        Like

        • Miles Lunn says:

          I always looked at serving in office as a privilege not right. So I agree I think we have to be careful as we shouldn’t ruin someone’s career in the private sector, but I think in politics, people cannot have even the mere suspicion of wrongdoing. Also considering how prevalent it appears abuse has been, I am hopeful this will lead to a better workplace where women experience less of this. Looking at the most recent update on Warren Kinsella’s page, it looks like this is going to hit people in both the Tories and Liberals and if you read Chantal Hebert’s will hit the NDP, so it looks like no party will come out of this looking good when all is said and done.

          Like

          • gabbyinqc says:

            “ … we shouldn’t ruin someone’s career in the private sector …”
            IMO, we shouldn’t ruin anyone’s career in any sector without allegations/accusations that can be proven. But when it comes to a he said/she said situation, where the two people in question are most likely alone, can there be incontrovertible proof?
            I don’t side with one more than the other, however, if the incident does not involve physical coercion. I’m a believer in the old adage “It takes two to tango.”

            As has been stated previously in this thread, absolving the women of all & any culpability is wrong, IMO. If a woman, young or otherwise, accepts to be plied with drinks and then ventures into a man’s bedroom, she can be sure an intellectually stimulating conversation is not the only thing that is expected. During the alleged incidents I’ve read about, some of the women seemed to be thinking more about how the incident might affect their career plan rather than their own integrity.

            And finally, there’s the issue of a clear definition of what we’re talking about. I’m sorry, but a man saying to a woman “You’re yummy” (to which an appropriate response could have been “Too chummy, even scummy”) doesn’t constitute sexual harassment in my books. Really, are we women such delicate & fragile beings that we cannot take some comments, even if they are asinine?

            I still think Rosie DiManno’s op-ed “I don’t care if Patrick Brown was a randy womanizer” — despite its title — is a valid commentary on this issue.

            Like

          • joannebly says:

            Did you see this?

            Like

    • Liz J says:

      Baiting….that’s what came to mind when reading Kinsella’s tweet.

      Like

  70. Anne in swON says:

    From David Akin via @Polkameister: “First zinger of 2018 in the #HoC goes to @AndrewScheer: If PM’s meetings are “ceremonial” in nature (as he said in Ethics Commish report), then who’s doing the work you’re supposed to be doing?”

    Like

  71. Ruth says:

    Fedili out makes room for Monte McNaughton to run

    Like

  72. Ruth says:

    well darn……..Later today @MonteMcNaughton will announce he’s not seeking @OntarioPCParty leadership. Wants to help @VictorFedeli the right the ship. (MM was a kingmaker in 2015 leadership race.)

    Like

  73. joannebly says:

    I think I’m going to try to put up some kind of new post soon, since the news has changed so quickly over the last few days.

    Also, to the regulars here, please make sure you have this site bookmarked since merely typing in BlueLikeYou may not get you here in a few days. Trying to simply my life. I’m very happy with the crew we have here and don’t really care to expand the readership and number of commenters back to the way it was, since it attracts too many trolls.

    And if this site ever goes down for some reason then try http://jojourn.blogspot.ca/ and see if I’ve left any current messages there. Thanks.

    Update: If you have problems posting a comment please contact me at the address on the “About” page (beside Home). The address there is meant to discourage bots, but I’m sure you humans will figure it out. 😉

    Like

  74. Miles Lunn says:

    Hopefully we can get some more candidates coming forward. Seriously Doug Ford would be a godsend for the NDP and Liberals. We need the election to be about the incompetence of the Liberals and why they need to go, not focus on us and with Ford the focus will be on him and all the skeletons he has in the closet. At times I almost feel like maybe secretly wants the Liberals to win or more likely his personal ego gets the better of him. Now is the time to put the province and party first, not one’s own ego. Vic Fideli has shown this and I am quite happy how he has handled things.

    I am hoping Christine Elliott throws her name in as I think she would be a very good candidate (we should have chosen her first time around, but that is a different story) and could help us win even bigger than we ever could have under Brown. Caroline Mulroney is quite capable, but I am a bit worried with lack of political experience we are taking a gamble. Don’t get me wrong, I would fully support her and she might surprise us, but with time running tight I would rather play it safe. Still I think she is a far better choice than Doug Ford (who is probably the worst possible one for us). Even though Ford might be able to win, I worry he would make it a one-term wonder and we need someone who can not just win in 2018, but also win in 2022 too.

    Like

    • joannebly says:

      Oh I’m glad you were able to leave a comment, Miles. Did you have any trouble reaching this site? I’ve been trying some stuff and not sure if it’s working out. Thanks.

      Like

    • joannebly says:

      To reply to your comment Miles, I totally agree with you that Rob Ford cannot be taken as a serious candidate.

      I also hope that Christine Elliott runs.

      Like

      • Miles Lunn says:

        She seems to be a popular choice so lets hope so. As for Doug Ford, I wonder if he is doing this to circumvent municipal campaign rules as campaigning for the fall municipal election is banned until the writ so its a way for free publicity. Unfortunately the PCs become collateral damage, but I fear his own ego is more important than the party or province or somehow believes he is wildly popular. He has a strong base for sure, but also is a very polarizing person and we need someone who can unite our party and ultimately unite our province, not a polarizing figure.

        Like

  75. gabbyinqc says:

    Joanne @ January 30, 2018 at 4:51 pm, I haven’t tried that yet. I still get GoDaddy when I use the bookmark route. I’ll try it next time.

    Like

  76. Bec says:

    Hello Joanne! I had no idea that you were still posting on your blog but I was delighted to check in 2018 and see the wonderful, insightful voices still posting.

    I had been able to get to you through BT but late this afternoon, my experience was the same as Gabby’s and so I had also done what Miles does, I went through Google.

    Wonderful conversations!

    Bec

    Like

  77. gabbyinqc says:

    Joanne, FYI when I tried opening your site via my bookmark I got this message: “The resource you are looking for has been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable” and after a second try, the GoDaddy site. However the https://bluelikeyou2.wordpress.com/ link worked for me.

    Like

  78. Anne in swON says:

    I came across this in a thread on Norman Spector’s feed. If what the document claims is true the rot runs deep. Jim Karahaliosis the author of the document. He is a lawyer who successfully sued the party. https://www.scribd.com/document/370268972/Brown-Dykstra-Mulroney

    Like

    • joannebly says:

      Wow that’s quite the document! So if what he says is true and the Brown-Dykstra cabal is pushing for Mulroney, that is very disconcerting.

      Like

      • Miles Lunn says:

        While not good, I really wish the more right wing elements would realize running on the platform they want will ensure we lose. As the Rolling Stones said you cannot always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you might get what you need. And the more right wing elements cannot get what they want in a strongly right wing government, but if they cooperate they might be able to get us what we need which is to get rid of Wynne. The guy is the axe the tax and seems to have not read the People’s Guarantee. The People’s Guarantee does not impose a carbon tax, rather it promises to use the money raised from the federal carbon tax to cut taxes. See how it works is Trudeau has promised any province that doesn’t have a carbon tax or cap and trade will have one imposed on them and the revenue raised will be returned to the province. So as long as the Liberals are in power federally we don’t have a choice. Now yes maybe that will change if Scheer wins in 2019, but usually you make your plans based on whom you have to deal with at the moment not on various hypotheticals. So without the carbon tax, that means no 22% tax cut for the middle class or 10% tax cut for lower income individuals which would give Ontario the lowest tax rate in the country for those making under 50K. I am in BC now, but this is painful to watch. Compared to the BC Liberal leadership race which seems quite tame, it seems there is always an element in conservative politics who has wanted to push the party too far to the right to be electable whereas ironically enough in BC that has been a non-issue.

        Yes I understand some readers here are unhappy the PCs are insufficiently conservative, but I think we need to focus on what is doable not necessarily ideal. One of the biggest differences on the left between the NDP and Liberals is the former focus on ideal and latter on doable and if you look at success rates, the former hasn’t had much success while the latter has had a lot. Otherwise we need to be as much to the right as Liberals are usually to the left, not as right wing as the NDP is left wing. Otherwise the goal should be to get the best possible outcome that can be achieved, not demand everything we want and thus remain stuck in opposition.

        Like

  79. joannebly says:

    OK I put things back the way they where concerning the BlueLikeYou domain link. So if you search on BlueLikeYou you should be redirected here as you were before. Any more feedback regarding problems, etc. is welcome. Thanks.

    Like

    • joannebly says:

      BTW are you guys seeing ads now? Did you before? If I don’t want ads to appear here I have to pay.

      This blogging business is frustrating at times. Wish I could just write and not worry about all the behind-the-scenes stuff.

      Like

      • gabbyinqc says:

        My usual bookmark worked to get to your site. As for ads, there is one appearing now for “Automattic – You don’t need to go to an office to write code” I have noticed some in the past but usually unobtrusive.

        If the ads are not offensive, maybe you should let them appear, so you wouldn’t have to pay. Like some twitterers who say that “retweets are not endorsements” maybe you could put up a notice to the same effect.

        Like

        • joannebly says:

          Ha! I like your idea Gabby.

          I don’t see the ads but I did notice them on my husband’s computer when I tried to view the site. I think there’s some notice to click if you find the ad offensive or something. The ads are controlled by WordPress. I guess that’s how they make their money since the wordpress.com platform itself is free.

          Thanks for the feedback about the bookmark. I was toying with not renewing the domain name but that is obviously problematic so I’ll keep it for now. How I dislike all this technical stuff. 😦

          Like

          • gabbyinqc says:

            I don’t blame you! But don’t give up ’cause if you do, you’ll leave a few of us who hang around here with nowhere to go! ;-0

            Like

          • joannebly says:

            Ah that’s a good feeling to be needed, Gabby. Thanks.

            Well I’ll hang in here as long as I can, and when the time comes to move on I will do my best to give you all fair warning.

            Like

  80. Liz J says:

    Maybe the operatives and MPP’s in the Ontario PC’s would do well to stop talking and get the job done. That includes Fedeli, it’s not helpful to keep talking about cleaning up the “rot” when facing an election in less than six months.
    Are we dealing with a bunch more interested in a palace coup as opposed to SMART people working together as a team to defeat the Liberals while they quietly do thee “cleanup”, or, just plain incompetents living in their own bubble and about to burst it and go down to defeat. Conservative voters have little to support at this time in Ontario….rock and hard place comes to mind.

    Like

    • Anne in swON says:

      What Patrick Brown, Rick Dykstra and the bigwigs in powerful positions have done to damage the party over a significant period of time will take a lot of effort to root out. There seem to be problems with authenticating memberships brought in by Brown, just to mention one issue. Interference in candidate nominations is another. Vic Fedeli has his work cut out for him but at least now the grass roots may begin to matter. There is a certain cadre at the top whose only interests seem to be what’s in it for them and their cohorts.

      Like

      • joannebly says:

        Maybe Doug Ford is right about the “elites”. But hopefully Vic will root out all that rot and make the party accountable. So many conservative supporters became disillusioned with this party and started their own. But that’s not the way to get rid of Wynne.

        Like

        • Miles Lunn says:

          I am hoping the party can get this under control soon. You would think the fact we are still ahead in the polls after this would create the discipline to do so. Usually this kind of infighting happens when you are losing not ahead. As for starting other parties on the right, that just seems silly. Just look at what happened in the 90s federally or what we have now in Alberta. That might make sense if we used a PR system, but does not make sense under first past the post system. In most of Europe you have multiple right wing parties, but under PR it is the combined vote that matters, not who comes in first. So understanding our system and seeing the problems its caused in the past you would think people would learn from history. NDP is in power in Alberta for precisely this type of attitude so we need to avoid making the same mistake. Perhaps those wanting division could learn from us on the West Coast as the centre-right BC Liberals not only includes both Red and Blue Tories, it also includes Blue Liberals too and whenever we are united, we generally win, but when divided we lose.

          Like

        • Liz J says:

          I believe Ford is right about the elites. I also say do not count Ford out or belittle any of them. Let them run fair and square. We need to respect all who throw their hats in and let the members choose, then get solidly behind that person.

          Like

  81. Liz J says:

    If we need motivation think about another four years of Wynne and what that will mean.

    Like

    • joannebly says:

      Yes indeed. And it’s almost as if we were thinking the same thing in your last couple of comments. I put a new post up which is very similar in philosophy.

      Like

    • Miles Lunn says:

      Also to stop the NDP too. My biggest fear now is people want Wynne out no matter what so that will happen, but if the PCs are disorganized and in chaos they might go over to the NDP. I think the desire to keep both parties and their fiscally ruinous policies is what we need to focus on. People need to quit griping over the party not being as right wing as they want. Any PC party is better than the Wynne Liberals or NDP.

      Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s